This is something that I have thinking about lately as I work back and forth between Flash, Flex, and WPF. One thing is becoming clear to me lately. I love having the XML markup layer that is present in both Flex and WPF. It makes it much easier to keep a clean separation between the model and the view in data-driven applications. Data binding is another powerful tool that I instantly begin to miss when working in Flash.
Another feature of WPF that I really wish Flash would adopt is the generation of code when drawing graphics in the Flash IDE. It’s great to be able draw graphics in Blend and then immediately be able to see the code that was generated. This allows you to fine-tune properties of the graphic in code. The fact that you will be able to generate XML animation data from the Flash timeline is a great step in this direction.
So let’s say that Flex Builder had the ability to draw graphics and had a timeline for generating XML animations. Would there still be a need for the Flash IDE? One reason that I can think of would be that Flash allows you to create much more optimized code and smaller SWF files. Publishing an empty Flex project is already over 150k in size.
I think Expression Blend is a great example of a tool that could exist in the Flash world. You can create graphics visually and at the same time be able edit the code being generated. You can animate using a timeline which also is generating editable code. Built-in support for data binding and component styling are also nice features to have.
I’m sure that I’m missing a lot of reasons why this wouldn’t be a good idea, but it’s something to think about anyway.
Lee
That`s the exact same thing i thought yesterday. I`m just reading “WPF Unleashed” by Adam Nathan (btw. great book to get started!). As a flex developer the one thing that i really like is the fact that everything can be declared via xaml. That`s the key to be able too make the whole thing work in different IDE`s. The possibilities that designers and programmers work on the same files is just too nice. Imagine no flas just mxml and people can open the mxml in flash and add some animations/designs there. I one thing that`s miising is a visual timeline for designers. Maybe one should build a tool in Flex that supports a timeline and saves it as mxml. Expression Blend is also written in xaml so this would be a nice idea. The other thing with the swf being smaller. I`m not really into wpf right now but you can export xaml as baml which sounds to me like a precompiled binary representation of the xaml just like swf files.
the answer is pretty obvious. Adobe want to make more money by dividing their product into three products.
From my point of view, it is like you said it:
the fat Flex projects scare some flash coders!
But i hope/think that Adobe will manage this ‘little’ mistake.
Of cause, the framework is BIG, but has it to be fat?
Johannes
I think Flex is nice but never going to be that popular there are better ways to do the same thing with .Net. Flash should stick to being Flash and imrove its Api support with web scripting laguages from within the box.
The lines are blurring all the time and I see a merging of products in the next iteration of the line. (Flash 10 and Flex 3 will be the same application)
I wish Adobe would go the route of WPF and really use there applications as a suite. The vector drawing tools in flash are honorably in accurate, if I could draw vector objects in Illustrator and save the file as XML to use in Flex it would be amazing.
Adobe has two great things going for the (1)brand loyalty, and (2)cross platform development. It will be interesting to see how things play out. Adobe is on the right track with Flex and Apollo, but they seem to be two steps behind Microsoft.
Unfortunately, for Adobe thous two step my be enough to topple brand loyalty in the interest of innovation. This is evident in the case of the Xbox360 and the PS3, by the time Sony caught up Microsoft was ready to take the next big leap.
My prediction, buy Microsoft stock. Lately they are a swiss army knife of innovation.
I agree that Flash and Flex shouldn’t necessarily be separated, I feel like its just another way for Adobe to get more money out of us.
I can’t buy Microsoft stock, I’m an Apple at heart
With Apollo set to be out soon there is a big choice to make as a developer and owner of Studio 8.
Stay bleeding edge or wait…
It is in Adobe’s best interests to provide a marketing and sales plan which includes the product matrix and how the bundles will work into the future and make that plan available to customers…I don’t see why they can’t provide this info along side the release information…upfront and clearly defined. Shouldn’t that be the primary deliverable of the sales/marketing/developer discussions?
Preparing the customer so that they could know as much about a new situation as possible. The development group at Adobe does this but not the sales and marketing teams, I guess I am frustrated with companies taking the stance that new programs are a massive benefit to me the developer so I should be elated to purchase and dive right in.
New programs are massively disruptive and require a tremendous amount of effort on our parts for perceived gains in performance, functionality, and value.
“Publishing an empty Flex project is already over 150k in size.”
If you are building a Flex project. If you build an ActionScript project, that’s not the case. Saying that Flash will let us optimize a SWF where Flex won’t is incorrect. The Flex framework adds the size and that’s because it takes care of a lot of things we’ve been complaining about in Flash for years. If you don’t like the bloat, build an ActionScript project and do the work yourself.
“So let’s say that Flex Builder had the ability to draw graphics and had a timeline for generating XML animations. Would there still be a need for the Flash IDE?”
“I feel like its just another way for Adobe to get more money out of us.”
So don’t buy both. They’re targetted at two different audiences.
Flex is designed for the hardcore coders, Flash is designed for the designers and designer/developers. Adobe will make the two friendly with each other but making them one tool will mean alienating some users. That’s what happened with Flash alone. Now you’re talking about going the other way and having only Flex.
“Adobe want to make more money by dividing their product into three products.”
What’s the third product in this case? WPF? That’s from Microsoft, but welcome to the conversation. And, Adobe has a lot more than three products, btw. There are reasons for that. Is making money a reason? Damn right. They can make money because there are different types of applications to serve different purposes, aimed at different people.
“The lines are blurring all the time and I see a merging of products in the next iteration of the line. (Flash 10 and Flex 3 will be the same application)”
With Flash 9 coming out at the end of June and Flex 3 coming out at the end of the year? Umm, I think not. Who would possibly want to buy Flash 9 if Flash 10 was coming out 6 months later? And Flex 3 will not be Flash. Goes back to what I said about different audiences.
I love OS X and Flash. Both of these products showed innovations YEARS AGO that have only recently been “invented” by Microsoft in Vista. I use just about every open-source language and tool out there. I use Windows and .NET at work because that is what most of the corporate world uses on the desktop. I’m an old UNIX guy and I am no fan of Microsoft, but I have to admit that VS 2005 is probably the easiest tool I’ve used (i.e. intuitive ) for developing web services and GUI applications (although I am very impressed by NetBeans). My point here is that like it or not, Microsoft does their homework and has the money and the will to control the market. .NET is their “improved” version of Java and the Expression stuff will be their “improved” version of Adobe/Macromedia tools. Here the word “improved” means “optimized for and tied to Windows”. They will make all of their stuff work together but incompatible with anything else and they will sell it cheaper than the competing products. And in the end, Microsoft will win again (Anyone remember Lotus, WordPerfect, Netscape etc.?). Want to keep market share? Adobe will need to build a developer tool that generates Flash content that is even easier to use than VB. Don’t confuse novice people with all of the XML junk. Just deliver compelling, intuitive, affordable products that empower the novice developer, and it will happen. You can bet that is what Microsoft will do.
Adobe has divided flash in basic and pro, they are moving in the opposite way.
Just one question, how many Flash developer is using felx, or just really need it? 1-2%?
I think it’s very dangerous what adobe is doing with flash. It’s going to die as director or fail as CF or just slowly fade away as java vm. Adobe is looking for new buyer, that is clear, but there is a whole world of new feature that flash needs as a web plugin before becoming a platform. The actionscript editor is still horrible compared with free tools, and runtime logic needs to be fixed in many parts.
Products like Zinc does a wonderful job without reinventing the wheel, like apollo does…
They should focus not blend things.
Flash allows you to do after effects like design for the web. You just can’t beat that anywhere else. You dont have the same creative flexibility in flex. Nor can you do something like this in expression designer which if they really think designers are going to jump ship from photoshop to using this to design all of their front ends I think there is a big reality gap on the millions of photoshop designers who are largely mac users. Have you ever seen papervision 3d? It blows any WPF (windows only demo) I’ve ever seen and wpf is hardware accelerated:
http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/another_pv3d_material_demo_fla_1.html
And it’s open source.
On the contrary, I believe Flex is somewhat the future of Flash. Seriously, I work in both and only one of them drives me insane. Guess which.
I like flex it’s very elastic and easy to use, combined with flash i think it will be a big tools for a new web applications.
It’s freakin’ bizarre that they are NOT combined. Do a search on “difference between Flash and Flex” and see how much confusion has been created through these weirdly almost-parallel products.