The third annual Microsoft MIX conference has come to a close and overall I had a great time attending. We had heard most of the announcements before we got to Vegas so there wasn’t anything that blew us away while we were here. Obviously the main focus was on the release of the beta 1 version of Silverlight 2. This version of the runtime has a subset of the .NET CLR and also includes a set of controls for faster RIA development.
The keynote was very long and wasn’t well received overall. The major announcements that interested me were the release of a control set for Silverlight 2 and the support for adaptive video streaming. This allows you to dynamically change the bit rate of video streams on the fly which is a very cool feature. There were a couple of nice demos that were shown. First, the NBC Olympic site was shown and had four HD video streams playing at the same time with the ability to pause and rewind these streams. Very ambitious, but even some inside Microsoft admitted that the actual experience won’t be quite as slick. Just so you know, keynotes at all conferences, including Adobe’s, are filled with more smoke and mirrors than a Chris Angel show.
The best Silverlight application so far in my opinion is an application built by Vertigo for Hard Rock. It showcases Microsoft’s Seadragon technology which allows you to dynamically load sections of large images. It is similar to the Zoomify technology that allows the same functionality in Flash. You can basically use your mouse to browse the entire their entire memorabilia collection. The application is very snappy and I think it is the most compelling use of Silverlight so far. Could it all have been done in Flash a few years ago? Of course, but it is still a nice example nonetheless. Congratulations to Alan Le and the folks at Vertigo.
I got to see a few good sessions but the best was the IdentityMine session which showed a whole host of different code snippets that designers can use to accomplish things without having to become a developer. Robby Ingebretsen and Nathan Dunlap gave away a lot of nice code for people to use. It was also great to see some old friends from the WPF world during the conference.
A few of us tried to get our machines setup for doing Silverlight 2 development but it turned out to be a nightmare. This was echoed by many people at the conference. This is one area where Microsoft dropped the ball. You need make sure that you have a solid install experience when you are getting people excited to try out a new technology. First impressions are everything.
One of the highlights from the conference was the Steve Ballmer keynote which was basically an hour long interview. This guy is freaking hilarious. Someone asked a question about Adobe but he skillfully dodged it. Probably a smart move.
Overall I am leaving with the same impression that Silverlight is a technology that is currently unimpressive in relation to Flash. But it is something that will allow .NET developers to start to play in our space.
Lee
Hey Lee,
Thanks for the recap on this. We have a client whose pushing us a little to start developing some things in Silverlight. I share your same sentiments though, I’m not impressed by what I’ve seen. Not to mention that the whole Silverlight experience seems to be mired in rushed product development and feature sets.
Nice write-up Lee and it was great to see you and chat in person. Thanks for the IdentityMine shoutout and for your readers the WPF snippets are now posted and available at http://labs.blendables.com.
- Kurt
unfortunately, “The best Silverlight application so far” crashes by webbrowsers without hesitation. that looks truly like microsofts work.
I would love to see some examples of Zoomify that are as rich, quick, “deep” or as easy to navigate as the Seadragon / Deep Zoom stuff. I’m not being sarcastic. I just don’t get the comparison. I haven’t seen anything that approaches it. Please share other examples.
Not to mention that – as in the Hard Rock example – the “canvas†is composed of 250+ separate images – each at their own native resolution (not forced onto the same pixel grid) – and can be dynamically reconfigured at any point, filtered, sorted, etc. That’s pretty impressive.
That Zoomify app is pretty a pretty pale comparison to DeepZoom if you ask me.
You might wanna find a better example in favor of Flash.
Listen you Microsoft wankers, didn’t I say that it was an impressive application? Zoomify is a similar plugin that loads tiles of large images on demand. If you want to get into a pissing match between Flash and Silverlight, you can go to the FWA and look at all the sites from the last five years if you want something more impressive.
Charming, Lee. You said it all could have been done in Flash a few years ago – “of course.†That sounded wrong to me, but I actually wasn’t sure. I guess I have my answer now.
Sincerely,
A Microsoft Wanker
This type of thing has been around for a while. Check out http://www.zoomomail.com/b8612b694c69d783a5ccf7dc9b284ec9 to see an example of multi-image deep zoom in Flash. This example isn’t as slick as the Hard Rock example but it is the same technically. I love the dynamic filtering of the Hard Rock site and that is why I wrote a post trying to praise it. But sorry, it can be done in Flash.
Well, i cant see it because it crashes everytime i click on “The Doors”… lol…
Hey, it doesn’t crash on my machine, because Silverlight2 fails to install, so I don’t have chance run it at all…Seriously, MS needs time, but given enough time they maybe catch up, be careful.
And I think they seems doing a good marketing/bragging job, even make you Adobe guys cannot stop talking about them.
ALl of the Flash zoom “comparisons” so far have been weak. For the most part, Flash dominates over Silverlight, but in this comparison, Flash is toast. Why do the Flash developers sound so scared?
Thanks Lee for mentioning Zoomorama.
Comparaison with DeepZoom is appropriate since it is very similar technology, except we zoom on videos too.
Still we do not have the same aim. We offer a drag and drop authoring tool to create zoomable photo collages and share with your friends, or embedd in your blog.
No need to code !
Try it, it’s free: http://www.zoomorama.com and download the ZoomCreator.
“Flash dominates over Silverlight.” Thanks for clearing that up Ha.
I think some of the most compelling things about Silverlight, and some of the things that will make it absolutely kill Flash, are that for one, you don’t have to deal with ECMAScript (*shudder*) – you can create Silverlight applications in any CLR-compliant language – including things like IronRuby and IronPython, which then compile to native bits once on the target machine. Couple that with using a markup language to describe the layout and some of the functionality, and you’ve got a very compelling design architecture that will be readily accessible to people who are familiar with things like RoR, PHP, classic ASP, ASP.Net, and many others that follow similar patterns. In this respect, Silverlight isn’t a Flash killer, and we’re not playing ‘in your space’. It’s a paradigm shift, and one that, if comparing to Flash, is a welcome one, is refreshing, and is long, long overdue in RIA programming.
R1CK,
being able to develop applications with a variety of languages is not a plus in my opinion. It confuses things and leads to a variety of problems. The DLR thing is primarily for marketing purposes. But it doesn’t matter anyway as, just like in WPF, everyone will use C#. Are the docs now going to have code samples for C#, VB, Ruby, Python for every API item? Very confusing to developers. As for the markup layer system you mention, Flex has been doing it for a long time so it isn’t new to WPF or Silverlight. I’m not a fan of it but I agree that it was smart for WPF and Silverlight to follow Flex’s lead.
L33
Hey, I’ve been researching Silverlight and have no idea what all the fuss is about? It’s incomparable to Flash. As a “designer” more than a “coder” Flash is the friendliest app I use, and will certainly continue to be.
Also, the majority of people out there have Flash player installed these days … Silverlight content requires yet ANOTHER browser plug-in to install. It’s going to be a long, slow process for Microsoft … just like Vista.
Jared.
Lee,
I do not understand why you (being an Adobe employee) have to be so rude towards people who disagree and probably misunderstood something you said about Silverlight. Calling them “Microsoft wankers” is not cool.
At any rate, Silverlight 2 is in early beta. Can you not expect there to be problems with installation? So why comment on that? Adobe CS3 applications are in full release and can at times can be very unstable. My point is not to dismiss Adobe. CS3 applications are incredible in my opinion, but I think it is not a good idea for you to comment on the fact that a beta product has a buggy install.
On another note, I liked what I saw from Microsoft. It shows that although they still have a ways to go to be more competitive with Flash, they are taking it seriously and making some pretty big steps. I do not think Adobe or Microsoft can compare Flash and Silverlight right now as being true competitors because Silverlight is still not yet at the level of the flash platform. However, it is moving quickly in that direction.
Love your blog. Keep up the good work!
733 -
Thanks for the heads up on Flex, I’ll have to look into that soem and see what it’s got. You got any good links, especially about the markup?
R!C>|
I think R1CK is right – we are talking about a shift in paradigms here more than two competing models. Flash and Silverlight are two entirely different animals that are confused as similar because they look the same. I think in many ways Silverlight is more a new species than a mutation of the old familiar Flash platform. Where Flash was originally built to be more of a graphic-based animation platform with script support, Microsoft has taken what Flash grew into (a script based platform with animation capabilities) and build on that principle instead. When I talk to other Flash devs, they frequently point out that with AJAX and / or FLEX, Flash does what Silverlight does. But Silverlight does it without the support of other runtimes.
The discussion over which app is better from a dev standpoint is pretty much useless precisely because they are two different paradigms and as such, the proponents on either side of the battle have entirely different understandings of the apps and the problems. What is needed is an objective discussion of the future of both apps and their capabilities. True, Flash is a well established platform with impressive merits, but that doesn’t mean that Silverlight by default is “just a copy”. Silverlight’s handling of video is far superior to that of Flash and with vector graphics based on scripts rather than bitmaps it does allow a whole new range of applications previously unavailable.
Just a small caveat: I know MS bashing is a highly competitive sport among web devs, but the fact that something is published by MS doesn’t mean that it by default sucks or is full of bugs. I feel the need to remind you that when Flash first came out it was garbage. And while Flash introduced something new to the market and people were willing to accept it’s problems, Silverlight is being introduced into a much more sophisticated market with users who expect a lot more. The fact that Silverlight is working so well so early in it’s infancy should be a grounds for applause, not snide remarks. And seriously people: Adobe products are full of nasty bugs as well. When Expression Blend mangles my work, Microsoft goes out of their way to figure out why. In contrast, Premiere Pro CS2 routinely destroys my projects and Adobe refuses to even acknowledge the problem. But that’s an entirely different discussion.
“When I talk to other Flash devs, they frequently point out that with AJAX and / or FLEX, Flash does what Silverlight does. But Silverlight does it without the support of other runtimes.”
I’m calling you out on this statement because it makes no sense at all. What other runtime does Flash rely on?
“And while Flash introduced something new to the market and people were willing to accept it’s problems, Silverlight is being introduced into a much more sophisticated market with users who expect a lot more.”
And this statement confirms that you are clueless. I know MS is looking for evangelists and I think you would fit right in
Lee, while the zooming experience in Flash can be impressive, is it possible to do the same tag-based slice and dice database retrieval as Deep Zoom in Flash – where what you zoom to can be something other than a zoom into the image? What would the coding pattern for that be?
Mary, yes it has been done for years in AJAX and Flash. Look at the Zoomorama example from my other post. It is doing the same thing, although the transitions aren’t as nice as the Hard Rock site. Google Maps was the originator of the technique I believe.
“I’m calling you out on this statement because it makes no sense at all. What other runtime does Flash rely on?”
Sorry for my bad description: I was typing this up while doing something else. And I readily admit that apart from Flash, I haven’t really put a lot of effort into learning Macrodobe apps like Flex – not because I don’t want to but because it doesn’t pay the bills. My point was simply that Silverlight is one single technology while Flash and Flex are two different technologies that run simultaneously to achieve one common objective. I’m sorry if that was confusing.
I most wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that my statement about Flash being introduced into a market at a different stage than Silverlight is erroneous simply because it is not. I vividly remember computers crashing regularly when people tried to install and run Flash apps when the technology first came out, as is the case with most new technologies. To expect that a rivaling technology fresh out of the Dev stage is perfect is to measure it by different standards – which is not only unfair but unwarranted. Flash has been on the market now for what… 10 years (I honestly don’t know – it may be more) and people are used to what it can do, it is easy to understand why people are annoyed, but that’s because they already see Flash and Silverlight as equals and don’t understand why one sometimes works better than another (I’m talking about the end-user here). I’m simply asking that you view Silverlight for what it is: A completely new technology barely out of Beta. To diss it for minor imperfections is silly.
Finally, I think you are cutting yourself rather deeply by calling evangelists “clueless”. I have great respect for your work, I’ve learned a lot from your tutorials and I have recommended GoToAndLearn to all my Flash friends. I must say I’m a bit surprised at how aggressively the Flash community (of which I am a part) is attacking Silverlight and I can’t help but wonder if there isn’t a measure of fear of the new and of competition mixed into the whole debate. For like you said yourself, the introduction of Silverlight is forcing Adobe to push the envelope and take Flash to new places rather than rest on it’s laurels.
Well I never dismissed Silverlight because they are having install issues. I actually think they have done a good job in the amount of time they’ve had. If re-read (did you read it?) the post you will see that I liked for the most part what I’ve seen. But what unfortunately you don’t see is the disinformation that some people within Microsoft like spread. That’s the stuff that I have an issue with and I will continue to call it out.
Actually, my response should probably have been attached to your DeepZoom article rather than this one, and some of my comments (like the one about dissing SL just because it has some install problems) are responses to other people’s comments, especially in the other article. My mistake. At the same time I think it’s important that a balanced view is presented and I feel that a lot of Flash-heads are being conspicuously harsh in their criticism of SL. That said, I am perfectly aware that you can’t take everything any company says at face value (that includes Adobe btw) and it’s pretty clear that SL isn’t all MS wants it to be. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s a great application.
Lee, I’m still not seeing the way in which Zoomorama loads one piece of content by zooming into another, and I’m not seeing the progressive resolution – can you suggest an example on the site that shows this? The ones I try zoom in at the same resolution as the initial image, and then load in another image in the same slow paint as anything else, and I don’t get to anything different, just a zoom into the same image. I can’t see a way to do dynamic filtering of the content I can zoom into. Has a zooming Flash app implemented those features, which are what are actually new in Deep Zoom? Google Maps loading a higher resolution tile of the area – similar but I don’t see it as the same as tag-based collections. If you were doing *those features* in Flash, what would the algorithm for coding them up be? I’m aiming to understand how easily you could do in Flash something that Deep Zoom Composer does by having you apply a tag, and whether Flash will give you extra flexibility in return for having to code up the action to do that yourself.
gotta say Lee, I find the language you’re using here about MS employees to be genuinely offensive, but perhaps typical of the aggressive attitude from Adobe towards MS since Silverlight came along from what I’ve seen.
There are a lot of people within MS who have nothing but high regard for you – maybe *had* high regard for you after reading this though.
The first time I come and read your site, I get called a wanker. Nice. Wash your mouth out and stay professional, please…
You think Adobe is aggressive? Obviously you don’t spend much time out in the field with your own evangelists. I am friends with a lot of people at Microsoft. But there are definitely some that deserve the wanker moniker.
Pete, you used to be a hardcore Flash guy so I’m surprised that you are so sensitive. Have you gone all corporate on us?